Roadmap Pardus-Anka

[richdb]

And they have a realistic view on the amount of resources available and draw there conclusion from that.

You can only make a good conclusion as you have give it a try. And as long as you do not give it a try, it gives you no reason to speak negatively about people who give it a try and then make their conclusion. And what is a realistic view on the amount of resources, if you do not even try to find more resources. But fortunately does not anyone on the german forum think that way, and there are some who like to try. Unfortunately only not all.
If Columbus had never give it a try, everyone still thinks that the world is flat

But of course this is only my opinion

[jasperodus]

And what is a realistic view on the amount of resources, if you do not even try to find more resources.

Yes. What about the likes of Bill Reynolds (aka Texstar), the creator of PCLinuxOS? Formerly a Mandrake package contributor... One man, who managed to get his distro up and running with a bit of assistance from just a couple of others. And, what about Warren Woodford, creator of Mepis? Talented, yes, but just one man who had a goal in mind. Etc, etc?

I know that adopting the uniqueness that is Pardus would not be easy, but I guess maybe we have reached a stage where things are a little too easy for us nowadays (in most things, really) and that perhaps the pioneering spirit is consequently diminished?

I just think it is tragic.

[James T]

Yes. What about the likes of Bill Reynolds (aka Texstar), the creator of PCLinuxOS? Formerly a Mandrake package contributor... One man, who managed to get his distro up and running with a bit of assistance from just a couple of others. And, what about Warren Woodford, creator of Mepis? Talented, yes, but just one man who had a goal in mind. Etc, etc?

I think however that most if not all of the individuals who set up their own distros in recent times had plenty of experience in distro building. I don't think that nowadays one could get away with "learning on the job" the way that Patrick Volkerding and Ian Murdoch did almost 20 years ago.

[jasperodus]

Yes. What about the likes of Bill Reynolds (aka Texstar), the creator of PCLinuxOS? Formerly a Mandrake package contributor... One man, who managed to get his distro up and running with a bit of assistance from just a couple of others. And, what about Warren Woodford, creator of Mepis? Talented, yes, but just one man who had a goal in mind. Etc, etc?

I think however that most if not all of the individuals who set up their own distros in recent times had plenty of experience in distro building. I don't think that nowadays one could get away with "learning on the job" the way that Patrick Volkerding and Ian Murdoch did almost 20 years ago.

But that's the thing: less resources generally and 'higher mountains to climb' the further back you go. But... higher ambition, maybe?

We are living in different times. As I suggested, I think perhaps the desire (in most things) is maybe less - because things are too easy, too much already done for us/so much (too much?) available to us. When it is all 'handed on a plate', motivation becomes less and less.

I think Linux (and computing generally) has become much less interesting (no, I am not about to embrace 'The Dark Side'), and that is why the potential loss of Pardus is so disappointing for me, it was so innovative, and you could just see that there was some great logic being applied.

[dschzz]

Sorry guys, this might get long

@dschzz, I also do not have knowledge about legal stuff, etc

Oh. Here I had a bit of hope, because you seemed to have some experience or at least talent in organizing things, at least on the technical side.

It sounds politic . They introduce ideas like Pardus on the Tablet? And now they try to stimulate other parties to develope parts of Pardus, but they still want have control of it? Do you know any company we work like that?

Hm... Pardus is still free (as in lemonade AND speech), isn't it? And the sources are available, right? So if I would produce a tablet PC and had the choice:
- either to just download an OS for free where I had nearly full control over what software I deliver when selling the device, could configure the kernel to my needs and all I had to do is to develop drivers for my special hardware,
- or to buy the OS (or rather the licenses) from Microsoft where I had very little control over what it does and still need to develop drivers for my special hardware,
then I think I knew what I would prefer. If my business is a piece of hardware that needs some kind of OS to be useful, then a "free in double meaning" OS is the best, even if I need to open-source some parts of my developments. So yes, I can imagine cases where Pardus Linux > MS Windows or the like.

And about controlling it - this only gets some meaning when I want other Pardus users with different hardware to use a piece of hardware that I sell, for example a certain USB device.

Plus, there is very little trouble with viruses and other malware.

It's different when my business is a piece of software because then I don't want to open-source it. Then paying for an OS might be better.

They have money, but they don't want to spend it on Pardus developpers. That's the big problem.

Yes, they got the best developers, who knows the in and outs of Pardus, but they fired allmost all of them?
So all those ideas are just double. And the Pardus we all know is official dead. There will be only a coporate edition. But how will this coporate edition look? And as community we not have the resourses to create a community edition of the Pardus we all know.

Well, if that is a hard fact, then it's already over. I was hoping that we can take one of the now-existing editions, preferably the newest one, and add little improvements here and there, keeping the whole system more or less up-to-date, until we reach the point where a new edition is needed. But in the meantime some of the developers may come beck to help, or new developers may jump in.

Or all former developers must come back, but I am affraid they not gonna do that.

Indeed - I agree. They shall not. But do we need all of them? Maybe we can continue with a few developers at first...

I do not have the German nationality but are a member of the German forum.
And my assessment is somewhat different.
The German forum is a collection of people like this world forum is.
And they have a realistic view on the amount of resources available and draw there conclusion from that.

Ok, that ist right - strictly considered. But...
- my impression from reading a good part of the post on the German forum was that the majority of the members don't want to help on this or feel unable to to so, and rather wait to see what will happen. But those who are waiting are practically not existing in relation to our actual problem. And...
- was there anybody except you who offered/announced to help or just did it?

Besides I had the false impression that Richard might have some clue in legal terms. Now I think that Dirse is the only one... 

[richdb]

Oh. Here I had a bit of hope, because you seemed to have some experience or at least talent in organizing things, at least on the technical side.

Maybe I have some talent on the technical side, but legal stuff is not my thing at all. That is more Dirse kind of sport, maybe he can invest into the Dutch legal stuff things.

Well, if that is a hard fact, then it's already over.

It is a hard fact, but over .... mmmm ... not untill we really see no way out anymore.

But I think there is a company/distrobution in Europe that is in the same channel as Pardus.
Mandriva, read this:
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/05/31/a-conversation-with-the-community/
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/06/01/join-the-conversation/
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/06/14/the-road-to-the-foundation-episode-1/
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/06/19/the-paris-meeting-results-the-community-is-moving-forward/

Does this look very familiar? Can we learn of them? Or maybe join them in some way?

[dschzz]

Oh. Here I had a bit of hope, because you seemed to have some experience or at least talent in organizing things, at least on the technical side.

Maybe I have some talent on the technical side, but legal stuff is not my thing at all. That is more Dirse kind of sport, maybe he can invest into the Dutch legal stuff things.

*nod*

Well, if that is a hard fact, then it's already over.

It is a hard fact, but over .... mmmm ... not untill we really see no way out anymore.

You mean, we have no chance but we will use it? Fine by me!

But I think there is a company/distrobution in Europe that is in the same channel as Pardus.
Mandriva, read this:
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/05/31/a-conversation-with-the-community/
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/06/01/join-the-conversation/
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/06/14/the-road-to-the-foundation-episode-1/
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/06/19/the-paris-meeting-results-the-community-is-moving-forward/

I just quickly read over it.

Does this look very familiar? Can we learn of them? Or maybe join them in some way?

Hmmm, maybe to some extend, yes.
Also: Maybe.
We could ask them for help, but they might be busy with their own distribution.

Hm. Just an idea... could we ask the Open Software Foundation for help?

[jasperodus]

Have just read through the Mandriva links.

Recently I read about the possibility of Mandriva wanting to use Mageia as the foundation for Mandriva's corporate offering.

Mageia declined Mandriva's actual 'invitation' to 'collaborate'.

TUBITAK wanting to reap potential external development for its corporate use?

Are they thinking along similar lines of the Red Hat/Fedora model? Not that they believe they could achieve anything like the same business result of course, but just that it would suit their corporate interests to do so.

[atolboo]

Yes. What about the likes of Bill Reynolds (aka Texstar), the creator of PCLinuxOS? Formerly a Mandrake package contributor... One man, who managed to get his distro up and running with a bit of assistance from just a couple of others.

This PCLinuxOS is a fork of Mandriva.
And with Pardus we have a very different situation.
That's about creating and maintaining your own OS because there is no mother OS anymore, to use the core of the system.

Ok, that ist right - strictly considered. But...
- my impression from reading a good part of the post on the German forum was that the majority of the members don't want to help on this or feel unable to to so, and rather wait to see what will happen. But those who are waiting are practically not existing in relation to our actual problem. And...
- was there anybody except you who offered/announced to help or just did it?

This ^^^ is not quite true.
With reference to THIS POST.
a.palius is also a (important) part/member of the German forum.
And I also offer my help on the list of Aaron and I am also part of the German forum.
This means that this "the German forum are reluctant or don't want...." is not quit the truth.
So I think a little differentiation is needed.

[jasperodus]

Yes. What about the likes of Bill Reynolds (aka Texstar), the creator of PCLinuxOS? Formerly a Mandrake package contributor... One man, who managed to get his distro up and running with a bit of assistance from just a couple of others.

This PCLinuxOS is a fork of Mandriva.
And with Pardus we have a very different situation.
That's about creating and maintaining your own OS because there is no mother OS anymore, to use the core of the system.

A fork of Mandrake. But granted, yes, the situations are different. However, it is not the case that every distro is/was forked, or started with a full-blown team of developers. The point was about the will. The skill must exist - I (naively) hoped there might exist the will to maintain Pardus .

[PhiX]

The Mandriva story is not similar to Pardus, because all the original Mandriva's developpers left the company to build Mageia, whereas all the Pardus developpers left the project to work on other personnal things. The continuity of the Mandriva project has been garanteed through Mageia, whereas there is a discontinuity in the case of Pardus.

[richdb]

@jasperodus You are right about some people from pardususer.de. But there are also a few that like to help. I did my best on the pardususer.de forum, and we will see who are ready to give some helping hand.

@all

The mandriva situation is not the same, i know that, but what they try to do is create some structure. And even creating some structure is difficult in this Pardus sitituation. I still have no idea what the Anka-group is doing. Yes they are building a repo, but there are no appointments about versions, etc.

My idea is now:
- Can we use the 2011.2 version as base? If you look at Fedora, the install system is already the same for years. So how long can PISI, YALI, etc participate? Can it handle new laptops and computers?
- We have a few people who can create updated packages. So we need to allocate tasks. Who take care about the desktop group, the game group, the multimedia group, etc.
- Communication is also very important. Some users can pick up this.
- The Anka-group also need to communicate more open, what are they plans. Because a turkish and besides that a 'the rest of the world' community is frenzy. We need to do it together.
- IRC or other communication channel, and maybe in the beginning 2 times a week (1 hour).

If we can setup this, then the rest will follow.

So how you guys think about this? And how do we start? Maybe an IRC session, where we can dividing the tasks?

[atolboo]

....... the pardususer.de forum, and we will see who are ready to give some helping hand.

Forgot to mention that pantera is also a member of the pardususer.de forum.

[jasperodus]

@jasperodus You are right about some people from pardususer.de. But there are also a few that like to help. I did my best on the pardususer.de forum, and we will see who are ready to give some helping hand.

Yes. I meant to - and should have ended by saying that even though you might have (or gain) support from certain individual members of pardususer.de, it seems extremely unlikely that you would gain the support of pardususer.de as an entity.

@all

The mandriva situation is not the same, i know that, but what they try to do is create some structure. And even creating some structure is difficult in this Pardus sitituation. I still have no idea what the Anka-group is doing. Yes they are building a repo, but there are no appointments about versions, etc.

My idea is now:
- Can we use the 2011.2 version as base? If you look at Fedora, the install system is already the same for years. So how long can PISI, YALI, etc participate? Can it handle new laptops and computers?
- We have a few people who can create updated packages. So we need to allocate tasks. Who take care about the desktop group, the game group, the multimedia group, etc.
- Communication is also very important. Some users can pick up this.
- The Anka-group also need to communicate more open, what are they plans. Because a turkish and besides that a 'the rest of the world' community is frenzy. We need to do it together.
- IRC or other communication channel, and maybe in the beginning 2 times a week (1 hour).

If we can setup this, then the rest will follow.

So how you guys think about this? And how do we start? Maybe an IRC session, where we can dividing the tasks?

Communication is a major factor. Do you know what the feelings/hopes/expectation of the Anka guys are - how do they see things? Do they see any realistic options or have they any suggestions? Do they have any contacts who might be sympathetic?

Maybe it would be an idea if you could establish a regular and routine contact with them and ideally Dirse if possible (at least) and then you could provide a common source of 'official' updates here (and elsewhere). I think it would demonstrate a degree of fusion/co-operation/communication/organization, and a potential momentum could be generated. At the moment, a sense of disconnectedness is made more apparent if certain announcements here (or elsewhere) are seen to be made independently.

As you say, the rest should (could) follow. Just need some recognizable form of organization to begin with.

Is there anything I could help out with in any general way? As I said before, I don't know that I actually have anything relevant to offer - no technical ability or second language - but anyway.....

[richdb]

The contact I have with the Anka-group take place via pantera.

But so far they not have any roadmap. Hamit of the Anka-group also says that they not have
enough manpower to release some kind of roadmap like Dirse place on this world-forum.

You can help with communication, let the world knows that Pardus still excists.

And my idea is to start with some kind of committee. Then we do a chat on IRC and distribute some tasks.

My idea the committee consists of: dschzz, yusuf, atolboo, a.palius, pantera, anglo, erdem, dirse, jasperodus and me.

So next week we plan a chat on IRC, and let we just make start then